|These notes are raw and not post-processed. They were all taken while the workshop was going on, and hence are not polished and not guaranteed complete or necessarily even balanced -- many scribes took extensive notes on only parts of the entire discussion.|
These notes cover all but the last (cash) session.)
Rebecca Wright: Who should decide the properties of new systems? Open src well suited to low resource grass roots devl - disadv - can be modified to remove liberty prot. - diff version compat probs Alma Whitten: Human factors. "Reality Check" Don't assume users will know what they need, read mans, keep trying after initial failure, or recognize success Suspect: user managed key dist; users chk sigs; or u's comprehend policies Tools - general, robust, needs skill. App: specific, fragile, needs less skill (till it breaks) Automation: either must always work -or- users can compensate -or not crucial Goals: Deploy for those who want it -and/or- sell it to those who don't know yet. Replacing DNS - discussion Ian Brown - DNS has been "subverted" from a tech thing to a public use in Super Bowl. 2 pieces smoosh names: (1) distributed searching - ask yr friends. Anne Adams - email and web very diff. John Weinberg - system must grow alongside DNS. for people who want to route around DNS. John Gilmore - DNS world's largest dist db. better dist db's can guarantee to resolve. build better and bigger than DNS (web > ftp) and they will come. global names preserve end-to-end. Tad Hogg - distrib search good. want global names on a biz card. David Kristol - deployment if comm'l interests oppose it is very hard. Alma Whitten - bookmarks -> P aliases. as consumer issue. Ian Brown -storing all your neighborhood location info a privacy issue, if queired or seized. Deirdre Mulligan - polit choke, anonymity. govts coordinating. fraud prot for consumers. how could this design address the land-grab concern? Lenny Foner - little guys should be able to make easy-to-find names - hard now. goals v. means. "most powerful entity wins" view - how to fix? duplicate names - how to find the fred smith you want? Rebecca Wright - disambig. if usually right, will think it's always right (oops). duplicated names much more complex and buggy. users w/common names must invent unusual pseudoes to be distinguished. "diameter dichotomy" - N leaps gets friends, N+M the world - true? Anne Adams - hierarchy gives users a handle. else all looks the same. Alma Whitten - attacks e.g., Bush floods system so can't find Gore. John Gilmore - price disincentive Deirdre - price may not help unless huge Roger Clarke - take easy problems first. he's still looking for the heuristics to fix the URL (IBM -> www.ibm.com) disambig how Phil Z - whats to know barnesandnoble.com gets the one. Lenny - Minneapolis Amazone bookstore -> obliterated by big one. John G - focus on replacement, not over prob politics. netscape ibm ->www.ibm.com --> built their own "realnames" to get $ Jonathan Weinberg - chairs ICANN WG on new TLD's. think of Smoosh as a DNS overlay rather than replacement. adding hundreds of TLD's ia a real solution to the land-grab. trademark problem. Amazon Feminist Books sued by Amazon & got big $. Alma - findable vs good names. David Kristol - Yahoo categories w/dots between? Patrick Feng - IF assume most important to find -the- B&N or Amazon, posists that megacorps are what matter. when looking for a friend, want diff heuristics. Tomas Sander - phonebooks solve local lookup. what's killer app for this? find it - start a company and do it. (aud) Simson Garfinkle - DNS designed for individuals. host tables too. IP addrs, no. Phone numbers avoided this w/-no content- in phone numbers. Context-based addressing system fundamentally flawed. Top-down DNS searching is the real prob? search your way up. Any of these schemes can be deployed as altered DNS servers. Those who say 100 or 1000- TLD's solve tm problem are folling self. can't use ibm.vineyard.net in commerce (aud) Stanton McCandlish - 2 kinds of goals. privacy/anon/decentralize - sociopolitical vs IP, big vs little players - not inet problems, legal sys probmems - w/open root -. can solve some probs in Dns w/diff admin. ---BREAK--- Wendy Grossman - same probl as ICANN. lots of solutions. since we haven't defined the prob. prob: defeat proprietariness of names. microsoft won't own them all. or a govt. (aud) Stanton McC - why are we here? design -privacy- in. Lenny - DNS thing not on privacy? get around centralized control of naming. John G - let's focus on centralized control of naming. -consensus- naming is own freehold. (aud) Ellen Ullman - eng tradeoffs. reliable, fast, v flexibility. Lance - main complaint re decentralized model - bad actors. punt that to the courts? Kar - If not a naming system, how to name them? Adam - Agrees w/Lance re courts. but if free speech depends on flying under radar? (aud) Gail Williams - confusion re nav or naming? Jonathan W - we here don't have ctl of law. tech solutions to underlying legal regime. John G - we need much more than... Wendy - we imposed this geographic thing: uk, .fr -- UK guys don't care. DN reflect the language of communication? Kar - all pwr not in legis - I've made mistakes in RFC's and we're living w/it! Carl Page - metadata like XML "evil" - people can't see it Patrick Feng - put coders in touch w/the community? Tad Hogg - (aud) Jean Camp - speak for human ambiguity. beliefe in binding = validity is a DNS -problem-. Karl - second. don't formalize wkg together. - we have the world's largest db. add new fields. John - Bruce Umbaugh - Karl - big co's will put good ideas into products. (aud) Stanton - communities not so geopgrahic online. how many my-city maliing lists are you on? Carl Page - make it work in Chinese John G - all at UI level. how to type Chinese email addrs? Lisa Kamm - International users disagree. Adam Shostack - find Barnes & Noble vs find John Gilmroe - 2 diff ways to relieve stress on DNS Deirdre - desply create confusion, help anonym etc. on IP side, make it hard to enforce the rules. (aud) Nick Derchuck - who overlays on whom? most sites trust NSI for names. John Gilmore - DNS for naming not finding. if we could solve the naming probl w/out central control and paying tolls, we'd be better of even if never solved finding. - circles of friends communicated Tomas - too big a problem. autonomous mobile code research - very flex, but discovered easier to do classically, sigh. eternity service - can post but can't take it down. medical records? what do we -want-? (aud) Karl Auerbach - Cisco - "the DNS"? want a multiplicity of naming, finding, ... (aud) Ed Gould - Compaq - must agree on goals. can we agree? idenfitifiability of the other end of comm? -- predictability. (aud) Carl Page - egroups.com - Google "lucky" button for B&N. match.com, etc, for finding people. not for DNS> (aud) Karl A - do people think of DNS as authoritarian or "prove it to me" results? Rohan Sanarajiva - Ohio St - Big players will fight for their mindshare. focus on solving a problem they don't care about. (aud) John Larson - Xerox Parc - DNS not for human searches. policy statements from search engines on how they order results for -you-. who paid most $? who asked? Lance Cottrell - most people don't have uniq (aud) Karl - DNS not just for web browsing. (aud) Carl Page - rplc DNS - performance sux. non-web-spaces - napster. naming of "Pink Floyd - the wall" (aud) DDT - Lots of people sharing one medicine. Lenny - how to convince people not to expect to find. (aud) Fen Labalme - Lisa Kamm - search engines give precedence to domain name. Alma - do mass of people find things by typing it in? Lisa - IBM.com, lots get it by typing IBM. no other data for domains... (aud) Karl - adding new naming services won't break net. experiment! Jonathan W - spidering the web is increasingly hard (expensive) JG - focus on how, if we decided on goals - could we deploy to get freedom by design? (aud) John Brockman - Ohio St - lots of browser choices - netscape good implem helped. autonomy (eng) wkg w/FCHQ (?). bayes theorem search? tailores fromuse. (aud) Dan Gillmor - Q: all this seems likely to lead to attempts to make it proprietary? (aud) Sandy Harris - Can we solve w/search exten? XML tags in home page, etc? Ian Brown - How to avoid propriatary - distributed sys hard to subvert. Lenny - finding hard things is hard. Karl A - moliere -> tartuffe or his cat? create env in which OOO finding mech can happen. hard to subvert. ---AFTERNOON--- business issues Paper call: Berk conf: anonymity & unobservability icsi.berkeley.edu/~hannes/ws.html David Philips - U Texas. Politics. Anti-nuclear movement. Phase 1 - local action re safety. Phase 2 - align w/ecology, peace, socialist movements. link to strength of existing trends. how can we create a chernobyl? and prepare the populace to react strongly? [sounds to me like the GBI ramming ill-thought-out things thru Cong in shock reaction] to generate and maintain social schisms. [privacy meme linked to racism - don't record people's racism and make quotas] My talk - free SW and business - FS and B completely compatible. same constraints for success. tactics. - transaction costs coop. - user choice - imoderated by reputation, distribution - no central control pointer - can flow as the community desires. - cygnus - -profitable- free sw co. - FreeS/WAN - inexpensive, effective, could become company. - Making business behave better Deirdre M - Intel FTC complain - PSNumber. use govt against people - not libertarian. privacy and consumer gruops. Colin Bennett - Harvard - Chernobyl? not approp. might come from low tech disaster. more worried about when surveillance techs work. John G - Chernobyl [above] Tad Hogg - tech can help give better policy choices. Anne Adams - UCL - Chernobyl's don't help. people trust tech. when violates, people get emotional and reject out of hand. Ari Schwartz - Engage companies who -wnat- to design in privacy. Patrick Feng - not encouraging a Chernobyl. if and when it comes, be ready. Roger Clarke - do your home homework - understand the tech, industry, politics, etc. sustained key linkages. uncomf bedfellows and unholy alliances. dirty hands - get 'em dirty. David - only want to lower the threshold that spurs people to act. (aud) Ed Gould - trouble articulating the privacy threat to the public. concrete ideas? Deirdre - most important to get people to take actions, rather than to understand!! individual autonomy - walk around w/out recording. re-use. confidentiality. (aud) Ed - what do people -lose- when privacy is gone? Roger Clarke - has to be visceral - specific measure placed in front of 'em. Brit key escrow -> public meetings useful. (aud) Ellen Ullman - people get a lot for surrending their identity. Rohan - business methodology - not activist methodology! is there a way to design incentives for biz to do the right thing? relationships. they yield information. mediated by -trust-. what models give incentive to build business based on trust? Jonathan W - Doubleclick ?/ out - chernobyl gently. what chern for? get legis? instead get biz to adopt privacy enh because it's in their interest. Deborah Pierce - 30+ bills in CA legis from Chernob - most badly thought out. Lorrie Cranor - how motivate biz to do privacy? sys good for monitoring that weren't designed for - toll coll sys, etc. (aud) Craig Hubley - agree w/Rohan. can't limit relationships w/legis. torts. designed dating svc - 400 ways to hurt people based on leaks! "secret identity (cred cards" became "billing identity". years later, feature to crossref and disaster. ontological. Karl Auerbach - use UCITA to license your name? Roger Clarke - Legis != EU. Try NZ. Adam Shostack - fear pushes thought. greed. #1 reason reap story of net-prey. Colin - echo Roger. most countries have laws. US out of step. John G - infrastructure for privacy or not: moving cash on the net. Deirdre - wrote to every single OEM> product poses a privacy threat: you do what? -all- responded and several biz stopped using doubleclick, etc, w/pressure. Roger Clarke - don't call it greed, call it profit. consent-based marketing. network effects. use them. Ken Olthoff - NSA - Antivirus SW community illustrative. AGreed not to use bogus market differentiation (# virus scanned for). can we do this about privacy? Lenny - "Toxic Waste is Good for You" - book.
Lenny Foner Last modified: Sun Apr 23 16:55:39 EDT 2000