CFP2000 WFPD: John Gilmore's raw notes

These notes are raw and not post-processed. They were all taken while the workshop was going on, and hence are not polished and not guaranteed complete or necessarily even balanced -- many scribes took extensive notes on only parts of the entire discussion.

These notes cover all but the last (cash) session.)

Rebecca Wright:
  Who should decide the properties of new systems?
  Open src well suited to low resource grass roots devl -
    disadv - can be modified to remove liberty prot.
           - diff version compat probs

Alma Whitten:
  Human factors.  "Reality Check"
  Don't assume users will know what they need, read mans, keep trying
    after initial failure, or recognize success
  Suspect:  user managed key dist; users chk sigs; or u's comprehend
  Tools - general, robust, needs skill.  App:  specific, fragile,
    needs less skill (till it breaks)
  Automation:  either must always work -or- users can compensate -or
    not crucial
  Goals:  Deploy for those who want it -and/or- sell it to those who
    don't know yet.

Replacing DNS - discussion

Ian Brown - DNS has been "subverted" from a tech thing to a public use
  in Super Bowl.  2 pieces smoosh names: (1) distributed searching -
  ask yr friends.

Anne Adams - email and web very diff.

John Weinberg - system must grow alongside DNS.  for people who want
  to route around DNS.

John Gilmore - DNS world's largest dist db.  better dist db's can
  guarantee to resolve.  build better and bigger than DNS (web >
  ftp) and they will come.  global names preserve end-to-end.

Tad Hogg - distrib search good.  want global names on a biz card.

David Kristol - deployment if comm'l interests oppose it is very hard.

Alma Whitten - bookmarks -> P aliases. as consumer issue.

Ian Brown -storing all your neighborhood location info a privacy
  issue, if queired or seized.

Deirdre Mulligan - polit choke, anonymity.  govts coordinating.  fraud
  prot for consumers.  how could this design address the land-grab

Lenny Foner - little guys should be able to make easy-to-find names -
  hard now.  goals v. means.  "most powerful entity wins" view - how
  to fix?  duplicate names - how to find the fred smith you want?

Rebecca Wright - disambig.  if usually right, will think it's always
  right (oops).  duplicated names much more complex and buggy.  users
  w/common names must invent unusual pseudoes to be distinguished.
  "diameter dichotomy" - N leaps gets friends, N+M the world - true?

Anne Adams - hierarchy gives users a handle.  else all looks the same.

Alma Whitten - attacks e.g., Bush floods system so can't find Gore.

John Gilmore - price disincentive

Deirdre - price may not help unless huge

Roger Clarke - take easy problems first.  he's still looking for the
  heuristics to fix the URL (IBM -> disambig how

Phil Z - whats to know gets the one.

Lenny - Minneapolis Amazone bookstore -> obliterated by big one.

John G - focus on replacement, not over prob politics.  netscape ibm
  -> --> built their own "realnames" to get $

Jonathan Weinberg - chairs ICANN WG on new TLD's.  think of Smoosh as
  a DNS overlay rather than replacement.  adding hundreds of TLD's ia
  a real solution to the land-grab.  trademark problem.  Amazon
  Feminist Books sued by Amazon & got big $.

Alma - findable vs good names.

David Kristol - Yahoo categories w/dots between?

Patrick Feng - IF assume most important to find -the- B&N or
  Amazon, posists that megacorps are what matter.  when looking for a
  friend, want diff heuristics.

Tomas Sander - phonebooks solve local lookup.  what's killer app for
  this?  find it - start a company and do it.

(aud) Simson Garfinkle - DNS designed for individuals.  host tables
  too.  IP addrs, no.  Phone numbers avoided this w/-no content- in
  phone numbers.  Context-based addressing system fundamentally
  flawed.  Top-down DNS searching is the real prob?  search your way
  up.  Any of these schemes can be deployed as altered DNS servers.
  Those who say 100 or 1000- TLD's solve tm problem are folling self.
  can't use in commerce

(aud) Stanton McCandlish - 2 kinds of goals.
  privacy/anon/decentralize - sociopolitical vs IP, big vs little
  players - not inet problems, legal sys probmems - w/open root -.
  can solve some probs in Dns w/diff admin.


Wendy Grossman - same probl as ICANN.  lots of solutions.  since we
  haven't defined the prob.  prob:  defeat proprietariness of names.
  microsoft won't own them all.  or a govt.

(aud) Stanton McC - why are we here?  design -privacy- in.

Lenny - DNS thing not on privacy?  get around centralized control of

John G - let's focus on centralized control of naming.  -consensus-
  naming is own freehold.

(aud) Ellen Ullman - eng tradeoffs.  reliable, fast, v flexibility.

Lance - main complaint re decentralized model - bad actors.  punt that
  to the courts?

Kar - If not a naming system, how to name them?

Adam - Agrees w/Lance re courts.  but if free speech depends on flying
  under radar?

(aud) Gail Williams - confusion re nav or naming?
Jonathan W - we here don't have ctl of law.  tech solutions to
  underlying legal regime.

John G - we need much more than...

Wendy - we imposed this geographic thing:  uk, .fr -- UK guys don't
  care.  DN reflect the language of communication?

Kar - all pwr not in legis - I've made mistakes in RFC's and we're
  living w/it!

Carl Page - metadata like XML "evil" - people can't see it

Patrick Feng - put coders in touch w/the community?

Tad Hogg - 

(aud) Jean Camp - speak for human ambiguity.  beliefe in binding =
  validity is a DNS -problem-.

Karl - second.  don't formalize wkg together. - we have the world's
  largest db.  add new fields.

John - 

Bruce Umbaugh - 

Karl - big co's will put good ideas into products.

(aud) Stanton - communities not so geopgrahic online.  how many my-city
  maliing lists are you on?

Carl Page - make it work in Chinese

John G - all at UI level.  how to type Chinese email addrs?

Lisa Kamm - International users disagree.

Adam Shostack - find Barnes & Noble vs find John Gilmroe - 2 diff
  ways to relieve stress on DNS

Deirdre - desply create confusion, help anonym etc.  on IP side, make
  it hard to enforce the rules.

(aud) Nick Derchuck - who overlays on whom?  most sites trust NSI for names.

John Gilmore - DNS for naming not finding.  if we could solve the
  naming probl w/out central control and paying tolls, we'd be
  better of even if never solved finding.
  - circles of friends communicated

Tomas - too big a problem.  autonomous mobile code research - very
  flex, but discovered easier to do classically, sigh.  eternity
  service - can post but can't take it down.  medical records? what do
  we -want-?

(aud) Karl Auerbach - Cisco - "the DNS"? want a multiplicity of naming,
  finding, ...

(aud) Ed Gould - Compaq - must agree on goals.  can we agree?
  idenfitifiability of the other end of comm?  -- predictability.

(aud) Carl Page - - Google "lucky" button for B&N., etc, for finding people.  not for DNS>

(aud) Karl A - do people think of DNS as authoritarian or "prove it to me"

Rohan Sanarajiva - Ohio St - Big players will fight for their
  mindshare.  focus on solving a problem they don't care about.

(aud) John Larson - Xerox Parc - DNS not for human searches.  policy
  statements from search engines on how they order results for -you-.
  who paid most $?  who asked?

Lance Cottrell - most people don't have uniq

(aud) Karl - DNS not just for web browsing.

(aud) Carl Page - rplc DNS - performance sux.  non-web-spaces - napster.
  naming of "Pink Floyd - the wall"

(aud) DDT - Lots of people sharing one medicine.
Lenny - how to convince people not to expect to find.

(aud) Fen Labalme - 

Lisa Kamm - search engines give precedence to domain name.

Alma - do mass of people find things by typing it in?

Lisa -, lots get it by typing IBM.  no other data for

(aud) Karl - adding new naming services won't break net.  experiment!

Jonathan W - spidering the web is increasingly hard (expensive)

JG - focus on how, if we decided on goals - could we deploy to get
  freedom by design?

(aud) John Brockman - Ohio St - lots of browser choices - netscape
  good implem helped.  autonomy (eng) wkg w/FCHQ (?).  bayes theorem
  search?  tailores fromuse.

(aud) Dan Gillmor - Q: all this seems likely to lead to attempts to
  make it proprietary?

(aud) Sandy Harris - Can we solve w/search exten?  XML tags in home
  page, etc?

Ian Brown - How to avoid propriatary - distributed sys hard to

Lenny - finding hard things is hard.

Karl A - moliere -> tartuffe or his cat?  create env in which OOO
  finding mech can happen.  hard to subvert.

---AFTERNOON---  business issues

Paper call:  Berk conf:  anonymity & unobservability

David Philips - U Texas.  Politics.  Anti-nuclear movement.  Phase 1 -
  local action re safety. Phase 2 - align w/ecology, peace, socialist
  movements.  link to strength of existing trends.  how can we create
  a chernobyl? and prepare the populace to react strongly?  [sounds to
  me like the GBI ramming ill-thought-out things thru Cong in shock
  reaction] to generate and maintain social schisms.  [privacy meme
  linked to racism - don't record people's racism and make quotas]

My talk - free SW and business
 - FS and B completely compatible.  same constraints for success.
 - transaction costs coop.
 - user choice - imoderated by reputation, distribution
 - no central control pointer - can flow as the community desires.
 - cygnus - -profitable- free sw co.
 - FreeS/WAN - inexpensive, effective, could become company.
 - Making business behave better

Deirdre M - Intel FTC complain - PSNumber.  use govt against people -
  not libertarian.  privacy and consumer gruops.

Colin Bennett - Harvard - Chernobyl?  not approp.  might come from low
  tech disaster.  more worried about when surveillance techs work.

John G - Chernobyl [above]

Tad Hogg - tech can help give better policy choices.

Anne Adams - UCL - Chernobyl's don't help.  people trust tech.  when
  violates, people get emotional and reject out of hand.

Ari Schwartz - Engage companies who -wnat- to design in privacy.

Patrick Feng - not encouraging a Chernobyl.  if and when it comes, be

Roger Clarke - do your home homework - understand the tech, industry,
  politics, etc.  sustained key linkages.  uncomf bedfellows and
  unholy alliances.  dirty hands - get 'em dirty.

David - only want to lower the threshold that spurs people to act.

(aud) Ed Gould - trouble articulating the privacy threat to the
  public.  concrete ideas?

Deirdre - most important to get people to take actions, rather than to
  understand!! individual autonomy - walk around w/out recording.
  re-use.  confidentiality.

(aud) Ed - what do people -lose- when privacy is gone?

Roger Clarke - has to be visceral - specific measure placed in front
  of 'em.  Brit key escrow -> public meetings useful.

(aud) Ellen Ullman - people get a lot for surrending their identity.

Rohan - business methodology - not activist methodology!  is there a
  way to design incentives for biz to do the right thing?
  relationships.  they yield information.  mediated by -trust-.  what
  models give incentive to build business based on trust?

Jonathan W - Doubleclick ?/ out - chernobyl gently.  what chern for?
  get legis?  instead get biz to adopt privacy enh because it's in
  their interest.

Deborah Pierce - 30+ bills in CA legis from Chernob - most badly
  thought out.

Lorrie Cranor - how motivate biz to do privacy?  sys good for
  monitoring that weren't designed for - toll coll sys, etc.

(aud) Craig Hubley - agree w/Rohan.  can't limit relationships
  w/legis.  torts.  designed dating svc - 400 ways to hurt people
  based on leaks!  "secret identity (cred cards" became "billing
  identity".  years later, feature to crossref and disaster.

Karl Auerbach - use UCITA to license your name?

Roger Clarke - Legis != EU.  Try NZ.

Adam Shostack - fear pushes thought.  greed.  #1 reason reap story of

Colin - echo Roger.  most countries have laws.  US out of step.

John G - infrastructure for privacy or not:  moving cash on the net.

Deirdre - wrote to every single OEM>  product poses a privacy threat:
  you do what?  -all- responded and several biz stopped using
  doubleclick, etc, w/pressure.

Roger Clarke - don't call it greed, call it profit.  consent-based
  marketing.  network effects.  use them.

Ken Olthoff - NSA - Antivirus SW community illustrative.  AGreed not to
  use bogus market differentiation (# virus scanned for).  can we do
  this about privacy?

Lenny - "Toxic Waste is Good for You" - book.

Lenny Foner
Last modified: Sun Apr 23 16:55:39 EDT 2000